Sean Plunket interviewed Dr Robin Whyman 13 February 2025
Does The US Court Ruling On Fluoride Change Anything In New Zealand?
Sean Plunket:
Look, I have long been involved or observed and I guess they were the, in some ways, the original cookers, the original anti-vaxxers in New Zealand, the people who are banging on about some great conspiracy involving fluoride in our water. And this particular form of cookarism and nuttiness has taken a new lease of life with a court decision out of the United States. And to discuss this more and what impact it might be having in New Zealand, I am joined now by Dr Robert Beaglehole, who was a spokesperson on this issue for the New Zealand Dental Association. Rob, nice to have you on the platform. Welcome.
Rob Beaglehole:
Oh, thank you, Sean.
Sean Plunket:
All right. Let’s start with a baseline. And as I say, I’ve looked as a journalist at this issue a few times. There has been for some time conclusive evidence that supplementary fluoride in drinking water supplies has a very positive impact on levels of dental decay and improves dental health, correct?
Rob Beaglehole:
Exactly. That’s exactly correct, Sean.
Sean Plunket:
All right. Has anything happened scientifically by way of research or evidence in recent times that undermines that fact?
Rob Beaglehole:
That is a very good question. And the answer is that nothing has changed in terms of the evidence at all, even with the recent reports and rulings coming out from the United States. The only thing that’s changed is an opinion on the evidence, not the evidence itself.
Sean Plunket:
All right. Now tell us about, because this seems to be the development that the anti-fluoride cookers are sort of hanging their hats on, there’s been some sort of court ruling in the United States. Where was it from and what was it about?
Rob Beaglehole:
Well, it’s very important to note that the ruling came from a district court in the Northern District of California. So, it was one judge, and what the judge did was looking at some recent reports from the NTP, the National Toxicological Program, and said that…
FFNZ:
Incorrect, the Court was the Federal Court not a District Court. The US, being such a large and populous country, has its federal court system divided into many districts. Some of the districts happen to follow state boundaries. California is such a large state that it is divided into two districts in the federal court system, the Northern and the Southern Districts.
The court was not just “was looking at some recent reports from the NTP”, it was looking at a major 8 year systematic review of all fluoride-IQ studies carried out by the US Government’s expert body on toxicology – the National Toxicology Program.
The EPA is a Federal Department and the Federal Court can direct the EPA to take action. Indeed Judge Chen made a ruling and stated that “One thing the EPA cannot do, however, in the face of this Court’s finding, is to ignore that risk”.P2
Sean Plunket:
Is that a government agency or what?
Rob Beaglehole:
Just like a government agency, it’s a program of one of the different types of ministry departments over there. But it’s very important to note that the judge did not conclude that the current fluoride levels are causing low IQ. So, it’s interesting that…
FFNZ:
The NTP, (est. 1978), is an interagency collaboration within the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. It is a collaborative partnership of: National Institute for Occupational Safety & Health (part of Centers for Disease Control CDC), Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (part of National Institutes of Health NIH). The NTP’s role is to identify agents of concern. It is considered the top neuroscience organisation in the World by the US EPA.
Judge Chen ruled that “Plaintiffs have proven, by a preponderance of the evidence, that water fluoridation at the level of 0.7 mg/L presents an “unreasonable risk of injury to health or the environment”. The Judge ruled that the EPA must take steps to mitigate the risk]. There is a large body of evidence to support this. 18 of 19 High Quality studies.
We agree that the judge did not conclude that the current fluoride levels are causing low IQ however the judge did not need to find that to come to his conclusion that water fluoridation at the level of 0.7 mg/L is an “unreasonable risk of injury to health or the environment.” Because there is no margin of safety between the level in the water and the level absolutely known to cause harm.
Sean Plunket:
So, the judge said there was a possibility that having fluoride in water supplies or fluoride itself could make a population dumber.
Rob Beaglehole:
No, no, the judge did not conclude that the current fluoride levels are causing lower IQ.
FFNZ:
Beaglehole is wrong. There is clearly a possibility that having fluoride in water supplies could make a population dumber i.e. having lowered IQ. The EPA agrees that fluoride is neurotoxic. Applying a margin of safety of 10, to the maximum allowed for naturally occurring fluoride in the US (4mg/L) would give a hazard level is 0.4ppm. The Judge states that a further margin of safety factor of 10 could also be applied to the 0.4ppm taking the safe level to 0.04ppm.
Rob Beaglehole:
So, what the NTP report looked at was it looked at fluoride levels and IQ levels in China, India, Mexico, Brazil, and a few other countries[2], possibly Iran, that has naturally occurring fluoride in the water. So, some parts of the world, these levels are very high, like up to 14, 15 parts per million up in the north-east of India. But in New Zealand, we have the exact… We’re in the opposite situation where the fluoride levels that occur naturally in New Zealand are very, very low. So, what we’re doing in New Zealand is topping it up to the ultimate level, which is about 0.7 parts per million to one part per million. The reports that looked into these other countries were far higher than what we use in New Zealand.[3]
FFNZ:
Rob neglected to mention Canada. Also, there has been a recent study out of LA, US. Both areas fluoridate at lower levels than NZ 0.7 – 1ppm. Canada fluoridates at 0.7ppm and Mexico at 0.7ppm equivalent with salt fluoridation. Ten consecutive NIH-funded studies between 2017 and 2024 show fluoride significantly impacts brain development in young children. These are the studies that make up the just-released NTP report on fluoride neurotoxicity. All studies were at 0.7ppm or equivalent from Mexico – Salt Fluoride.
#1. Bashash et al. (2017) – Fluoride & IQ
#2. Thomas et al. (2018) – Fluoride & IQ
#3. Bashash et al. (2018) – Fluoride & ADHD
#4. Green et al. (2019) – Fluoride & IQ
#5. Till et al. (2020) – Fluoride & IQ
#6. Cantoral et al. (2021) – Fluoride & IQ
#7. Adkins et al. (2022) – Fluoride & Behavior
#8. Goodman et al. (2022) – Fluoride & IQ
#9. Hall et al. (2023) – Fluoride & IQ
#10. Malin et al. (2024) – Fluoride & Behavior
Rob Beaglehole:
So, some parts of the world, these levels are very high, like up to 14, 15 parts per million up in the north-east of India. But in New Zealand, we have the exact… We’re in the opposite situation where the fluoride levels that occur naturally in New Zealand are very, very low. So, what we’re doing in New Zealand is topping it up to the ultimate level, which is about 0.7 parts per million to one part per million. The reports that looked into these other countries were far higher than what we use in New Zealand.
FFNZ:
This is blatantly incorrect because the studies included Canada and Mexico at lower levels than New Zealand fluoridates at. Indeed, the American Dental Association wanted a disclaimer that it didn’t apply to water fluoridation. The NTP repeatedly repudiated the ADA. The “highest quality studies showing lower IQs in children were done in ‘optimally [0.7ppm]’ fluoridated areas.” NTP Commentary Response.
Sean Plunket:
All right. So, we’re not comparing apples with apples. The anti-fluoride nutters always claim that, I don’t know, it causes everything, people to be dumb, kills people, autism, the whole lot. Is there any scientific evidence that suggests that fluoride added to water and in toothpaste at the levels that can be consumed in New Zealand poses any risk whatsoever to anyone?
Rob Beaglehole:
There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever within New Zealand or in other countries around the world that state that that’s optimally fluid added levels at 0.7 to one part per million, there’s any impact whatsoever. It doesn’t cause hair loss. It doesn’t cause headaches. It doesn’t cause IQ loss. So that’s very clear to make. Actually, another thing, Sean, is that we don’t call them anti-fluoride nutters. We just call them…
FFNZ:
This is not true. There is clear evidence according to the NTP report and the US Court Ruling that there is evidence of impact on brain development at fluoridation levels used in New Zealand. The NTP meta-analysis reported that 52 of 55 human IQ studies found lower IQ with high and low fluoride exposures, 95% consistency. There was a 7 IQ point reduction.
Of the 19 studies rated higher quality, 18 found a lowering of IQ. The NTP recognised that of the high-quality studies the Canadian and Mexican cohort data were the strongest and conducted at 0.7ppm. Those studies found an IQ reduction range between 3 – 9 IQ points. On average, a 1ppm increase may cause a 5 IQ point reduction.
Sean Plunket:
I do. I’m allowed. What do you call them?
Rob Beaglehole:
You’re allowed. I just call them, you know, I’ve got friends who oppose the fluoride. So, I just call them those opposed to water fluoridation rather than calling them nutters because I…
Sean Plunket:
Well, they are. Their cookers… Let’s be honest, Rob. I know. There’s what you’ve got to say here, public facing, but come on. In the safety of your own home.
Rob Beaglehole:
You’re Sean Plunkett. You’re Sean Plunkett. So… Yeah, I just…
Sean Plunket:
OK, so you would just be very, very careful in case you offend any of those cookers.
Rob Beaglehole:
Yeah, exactly. Right.
Sean Plunket:
Do you think, Rob, if you drew a Venn diagram, do you think if you drew a Venn diagram of people who believe vaccines are an evil, world economic foreign plot to make us all subservient and people who think fluoride makes you dumber, it would all just be one circle?
Rob Beaglehole:
You also need to add the chemtrailers into that as well.
Sean Plunket: :
Yeah. Right. And the chemtrailers. That would all just be one big Venn diagram circle, wouldn’t it?
Rob Beaglehole:
It would be, yes. But in terms of getting back to the point, the point is, Sean, that we need to reassure the public that there’s no new evidence whatsoever that has come out to say that drinking fluoridated water in New Zealand levels has any impact on IQ, hair loss, bone cancer, anything that people are saying.
FFNZ:
Beaglehole is not telling the truth. As discussed above, there is clear evidence according to the NTP report and the US Court Ruling that there is evidence of impact on brain development at fluoridation levels used in New Zealand.
Sean Plunket:
Which is a massive saving in cost and suffering, isn’t it?
Rob Beaglehole:
The cost and suffering, pain. You know, I’m a clinical dentist. I pull out teeth every day I work. It’s heart-breaking. We also need to know and highlight that the most common chronic disease here in New Zealand, it’s not obesity, it’s not cancer, it’s actually tooth decay.
FFNZ:
Beaglehole should be advocating for the Scotland Childsmile Program. This is essentially a school toothbrushing scheme that has caused dental decay rates to plummet in Scotland. It has also achieved a halving of general anaesthetics needed for severe dental decay. Anyone who really cares about children suffering from severe dental decay would be advocating for this simple, effective and cost-saving scheme.
Shane Reti, Health Minister, is aware of the program per a recent Hansard recording from Parliament.
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Such a dreadfully unfortunate name. Maybe Rob should stick his head back up his Beaglehole.